Interview with Pat Clerkin

Pat: Garron Tower, he thought it was a great place for a College. He was a great man for putting up statues.

Interviewer: Father Agnew, was he the first Principal?

Pat: No he was the first Bursar. He was the first Bursar. He’s dead now.

Interviewer: What year was that, the 50’s.

Pat: 1952. That was put up about 1953.

Interviewer: Then do people like go and pray at it or something?

Pat: I remember it going up. Oh no. It’s just to remind I suppose the students of the crucifixion.

Interviewer: Yeah. How many pupils would be in Garron Tower?

Pat: 610.

Interviewer: Boys and Girls.

Pat: At the moment, that’s what on the roll this year. About half and half.

Interviewer: And is it mixed all the way throughout or is it just the upper …

Pat: No it’s mixed the whole way.

Interviewer: It used to be just the upper years with girls, wasn’t it?

Pat: I’m trying to find the easiest way up. We’ll go up here. We have to go up sometime.

Interviewer: I know. Are you all right?

Pat: Oh aye.

Interviewer: It’s sort of squishy, the grass.

Pat: This here in front of you by the way was an ice house.

Interviewer: Oh.

Pat: You remember before fridges …

Interviewer: Yes.

Pat: Stuff was kept in chambers built underground and then during the winter ice was put in with it and because it was underground the ice lasted a long time.

Interviewer: Does that go back to Lady Londonderry’s time?

Pat: I think it goes back … it does.

Interviewer: Where was the entrace then?

Pat: Aye that’s it there.

Interviewer: Ahh. And how deep would it have went underground?

Pat: That’s it there.

Interviewer: Oh Yeah.

Pat: Can you see? Now that’s an ice house.

Interviewer: I’m going to sort of creep in a wee bit. You will see me kill myself.

Pat: Oh God no, don’t fall in.

Interviewer: No.

Pat: How far does it go down?

Interviewer: It goes down about 20 feet.

Pat: It wouldn’t go as much as that would it? I knew they went down fairly deep to get the cold you know.

Interviewer: From the roof it does, it really does. It’s all bricked.

Pat: You see they would have used ladders or something to get down to it.

Interviewer: Yeah.

Pat: And the deeper they would go the cooler it would be.

Interviewer: Aye.

Pat: So that’s an ice house.

Interviewer: There’s no sort of stone steps or anything in it, no?

Pat: Don’t fall in Caroline or I would have to get help to get you out.

Interviewer: No, I’m going to sort of use this.

Pat: Have you enough light?

Interviewer: Yeah. This has a night vision thing. For in sort of pitch black.

Pat: You need it, you need it. It’s a wonder they haven’t it blocked off because sheep could fall in.

Interviewer: I know. It’s just beer cans and things you know. It’s a pity the sun is away. For scale I could use those … the cross. I have a meter stick in the car I should have brought it.

Pat: You need to get in one of these. You set it up and I’ll take it for scale.

Interviewer: Yeah, well. You don’t want to block the entrance. Wait until I take my glasses off.

Pat: Is it this first button?

Interviewer: The biggish button, the grey one, yeah. I don’t want to block any of it.

Is that it?

Pat: Is that it.

Interviewer: Yeah.

Spkr01 I hope that works. That’s the ice house.

Interviewer: Well I remember reading about that in something, I can’t remember what. Something in the Glynns maybe. Was there only the one?

Pat: There was only the one ice house there. Now a problem getting over this. That’s a stile.

Interviewer: A stile, aye. There’s one round there too.

Pat: We’ll get up on the top and get some of the view.

Interviewer: That sort of … like that’s easy there at the side.

Pat: That’s the motte that goes round it.

Interviewer: Yes.

Pat: That’s a fairly solid construction. Look at that for a view.

Interviewer: I know. Is that level, aye?

Pat: That’s Garron Tower, heading towards Carnlough and they own it right up to the top of the mountain and then away over the mountain as well.

Interviewer: Do they, God.

Spkr01 That’s their sheep up there.

Interviewer: They’re loud enough.

Pat: You get a better view from up the top.

Interviewer: I try to … what I try to do is to get you know like different distances.

Pat: It’s a pity Scotland isn’t very clear.

Interviewer: I know. You don’t get different distances all in the one sort of sequence so you can get a judgement of far away and then up close. Are you all right? It’s not like a real stile.

Pat: It’s obviously meant for crossing.

Interviewer: Yeah.

Pat: One of the students went over here.

Interviewer: Sorry?

Pat: One of the students went over here once.

Interviewer: Did they?

Pat: You need to watch.

Interviewer: They must have been able to see Scotland really clearly from here Pat.

Pat: Oh aye very clear.

Interviewer: Could you see even beyond those hills to the ones behind?

Pat: Yeah. You can see the Isle of Arran on a clear day.

Interviewer: So there never was a low down entrance into the ice house. It was always just high up.

Pat: As far as I know … they probably used a ladder.

Interviewer: Aye. You will probably get through there, underneath.

Pat: I will get underneath. Now Garron Tower they had a water reservoir up here and they used the water overflow from the stream and pumped water up to here and when Garron Tower opened they still used it but they’re now connected to the mains round in Carnlough but that’s only within the past 20 years. Like most of my time here they used this reservoir built here at the top and during the war there was a look out post.

Interviewer: The army?

Pat: Right up at the top of Dunmaul there.

Interviewer: Right on the top. Where’s Galboly then from here?

Pat: It’s away round the corner.

Interviewer: Oh is it.

Pat: You see there is the cut rock, the road goes straight out and runs down there.

Interviewer: Yeah.

Pat: Galbolly is away round.

Interviewer: I’m sure kids from the school aren’t allowed up here like?

Pat: No it’s out of bounds.

Interviewer: Aye.

Pat: But they still come up.

Interviewer: Oh wow look at that. What are those wee houses down there?

Pat: There were four houses together there that belonged to Garron Tower at one time. Now they’re all private, they’re all private.

Interviewer: What were they originally built for?

Pat: There is a house in under the cliffs here you see and the people in that built a new bungalow across the road. That was Alex McAlister but he’s dead. Do you know Jennifer, well of course you don’t know the Garron Tower students.

Interviewer: No.

Pat: The two daughters. One is now qualified as a doctor and the young one has just did her ‘A’ Levels. They live there. I didn’t know Maura had the garden kept so nice. Looking from here you can see how nice it is.

Interviewer: And how close to the sea.

Pat: And then there’s a car park in there, a public car park.

Interviewer: Where does that wee path go to?

Pat: Where?

Interviewer: White path just away from the car park.

Pat: Oh they did that down to the rocks. It’s landscaped. You see they made a public car parks there, I didn’t know that. That’s just for the public …

Interviewer: To stop and have a look.

Pat: You could if you wanted to surely.

Interviewer: Do you know anything else about this fort, Dunmaul is that just the townland.

Pat: Dun Bhail is the bare fort there is no trees or anything on it. There is another one down the road with trees on it but that’s probably outside your jurdisiction.

Interviewer: Where?

Pat: It’s in Carnlough Parish.

Interviewer: No it’s not. It’s not out of my … I go as far as Glenarm.

Pat: You do. Well I’ll show you where there is another one.

Omt Right.

Pat: Down the road.

Interviewer: What do you call it?

Pat: Dungallon.

Interviewer: No I don’t know where that is. I’ve heard of it but I don’t know where it is.

I’m just going to take some photos here.

Pat: His brother Jack – Jack wrote a book called Traveller in the Glens.

Interviewer: Oh yes.

Pat: Jack used to be a journalist. He was born in that wee house on the way up.

Interviewer: Where the trees are?

Pat: His brother Brian, Jack had a son John who probably owns the house now probably uses it as a summer house because I never heard of it being sold.

Interviewer: What period do you think this fort was used up to?

Pat: This was, it was an Norman motte but it obviously must have been a fort before that because if it’s position. I think it was a fort before that. Traditionally the Danes used it but they would have taken it over from, they wouldn’t have built it but they used it.

Interviewer: Was it ever excavated?

Pat: No. This here was dug out and there was no attention paid to what was underneath it at that time.

Interviewer: Aye.

Pat: But there would be parts of it that were never touched.

Interviewer: So what was that, that was put on top when the reservoir was closed.

Pat: That was there when, there was a water resvoir under that but you can’t use it any more.

Interviewer: But it’s still there.

Pat: Oh it is yes. It was Lady Londonderry built that and then Garron Tower used it up until the water supply was put in and it is only as recently as 20 years ago that the line was brought from Carnlough. Garron Tower did this cement cover because I think before that it was a wooden cover but if you want to look down into it there.

Interviewer: It’s not very deep.

Pat: It’s not maybe not that deep.

Interviewer: No.

Pat: Is there any water in it?

Interviewer: No there’s not.

Pat: No but that’s what it was. There is no water in it but it was a reservoir constructed by Lady Londonderry and then I think this cement top seems to be fairly recent so it was probably when Garron Tower took over in 1951 because I believe the original cover was wooden.

Interviewer: Yeah. Beautiful isn’t it.

Pat: This is all Garron Tower property right away over the mountain, 300 acres of mountain behind that and down as far as you can see to those trees down at the bottom and then down this way to the rock there.

Interviewer: It’s good in a way too that it’s kept all as one isn’t it and preserved. Nobody else can sort of build on it.

Pat: Hopefully it will stay that way.

Interviewer: Have you been up here when Scotland has been really clear?

Pat: Oh yes.

Interviewer: Have you seen the view?

Pat: Yes.

Interviewer: Breathtaking isn’t it?

Pat: With binoculars you can see the houses on Southend.

Interviewer: No way.

Pat: Through binoculars you can see them really clearly. You can barely seen the outline of Scotland today.

Interviewer: I know.

Pat: It’s a pity. Dungallon Fort was one of the last strongholds in Ireland

Interviewer: Right.

Pat: As opposed to the towns and places like Dublin.

Interviewer: So what century was that up to?

Pat: They were supposed collect tribute here and ship it to Scandavia

That would be, the remains would be 1014, it would be around 1000 mark.

I would imagine shortly after 1014 they would have left it, lost their power in Ireland at this stage.

Interviewer: It would be good to have a photograph of this then to start our book. It’s just as handy to take something that’s already designed.

Pat: Yeah.

Interviewer: What’s that there, Pat?

Pat: That’s just a natural rock.

Interviewer: There?

Pat: Oh that there. That is probably the covering for the pipes, the water pipes that come down.

Interviewer: Oh right.

Pat: You see the way the water came it came down there and then it goes across over to the other side and then down again.

Interviewer: Right.

Pat: Do you see over at the other side that’s where, the water mains come up the road and they built a new reservoir over there about 20 years ago.

Interviewer: Is that where that mound is?

Pat: Yes. But the old pipes went down from there so this water went over underneath and up somewhere over there and then down.

Interviewer: Right. It’s like a chimney isn’t it.

Pat: That’s where the water pipes came down. That’s how they insulated them.

Interviewer: I’ll have to go back a good bit to get a photograph.

Pat: I don’t think there is anything, I don’t think you will get much from round that way.

Interviewer: So did you just take a real interest in everything when you came here. Just found out by sort of ….

Pat: Well I worked here you see. This is where I worked. So I would be up here in my spare time and up the mountains.

Interviewer: And you were genuinely interested in it all.

Pat: I used to take classes up the mountain.

Interviewer: Did you? What subject?

Pat: Chemistry. Science you know up the mountain to identify wildflowers and things.

Interviewer: Right.

Pat: My first year here, one class I had, we identified over a 100 species spring and summer. There is enough stuff here to make hay.

Interviewer: To make hay?

Pat: Aye. There’s enough grass here to make hay because they haven’t let the sheep in on it. Unless they let the sheep in on it later on before the sales and that will fatten them up you know. The sheep are all up the mountain at the moment.

Interviewer: Does the Tower, I mean do they own sheep?

Pat: Oh aye they do surely.

Interviewer: Who looks after all that side of it?

Pat: There is a farm steward. You see they have a farm down below as well.

Interviewer: Oh right.

Pat: The have good land down the other side of the college.

Interviewer: … no not from here, further back. No I’ll run on. Sure you don’t need to … You can just stand there for scale if you want.

Pat: If you were over there you might get an angle or you would get it down from maybe the other side of the field there.

Interviewer: Yeah. I’ll try both sure.

Pat: You needed gravity to get the water to flow down. So they pumped the water up to that. We’ll go round and I’ll show you where the pump house was. That’s modern, that’s only there 20 years. In most of my time they used the water pumped from up there although the pump is below had a big wheel and it went round and it was used to pump some of the water up there and there was a wee fellow killed in it. They crawled in underground where the pipes came out of an underground duct, there was two of them crawled in. You would have thought you couldn’t have got it but two of them crawled in and one was taking a ride round on the wheel and the other was standing looking at him and you see the wheel was going round nice and slowly but it was driving pump machinery and the pump machinery was moving much faster and the tail of his gaberdine got caught in it and it pulled him in and by the time the other fellow realised what was happening and got down off the wheel the thing was too tight and he couldn’t open it and he couldn’t tear it and it squeezed him to death.

Interviewer: Oh. And the other wee lad must have been traumatized.

Pat: He was aye.

Interviewer: How long ago did that happen?

Pat: That happened about 1956 or 7.

Interviewer: Was that wee lad from here?

Pat: He was from Belfast, he was boarder.

Interviewer: God.

Pat: Do you want to take a photo from here?

Interviewer: Not really. The view from over there was quite good you know because you’re higher up.

Pat: We’ll go round that way and see.

Interviewer: Do you see them two ditches.

Pat: You see the old Coast Road, do you see this here, up here that was the old Coast Road, it came up, it came through the grounds here and up there.

Interviewer: Really.

Pat: And down that was the old Coast Road before they built the Coast Road down below and this road up here wasn’t built, it was put in much later but the old Coast Road it went this way and down, it went down a steep hill at the far end of that field.

Interviewer: Even in Lady Londonderry’s time?

Pat: No Lady Londonderry shifted it out to where it is now, the road we came in. She was the one that shifted that to build Garron Tower but before she built Garron Tower there were houses called farmers cottages up here and over there just where that, just in the front of that there and then down a very steep hill at the far end of that. Now Lady Londonderry when she built Garron Tower, moved the road out away so that she could put a wall in and enclose her part.

Interviewer: Yeah. Built over the road then.

Pat: That was the road we come in was made in 1850. Lady Londonderry put the old Coast Road up there to give her privacy in her own grounds.

Interviewer: Did away with this road completely.

Pat: Did away this road.

Interviewer: … in there.

Pat: Yes. They were dorminorities when I came here but they’re now classrooms.

Interviewer: 1860.

Pat: They were built, they were the stables, the original stables and maids and servants quarters of the old, well the outdoor servants quarters of the old building, of the Castle. Now the Castle was opened in 1851 but there was extensions built whiles later and this was obviously built in 1860.

Interviewer: It’s nice isn’t it?

Pat: That was originally the stables of Lady Londonderry’s stables and grooms quarters.

Interviewer: Is there no boarders now at all?

Pat: No, no.

Interviewer: All just classrooms.

Pat: If you can get a suitable angle. Did you get one?

Interviewer: Yeah. It must have been very exclusive sort of boarders was it, expensive?

Pat: Not all that expensive but it was regarded you know as …

Interviewer: A good place.

Pat: It was a good place.

Interviewer: Imagine if you were sort of poetically inclined.

Pat: These are individual rooms for students.

Interviewer: Really.

Pat: There was 150 of them altogether.

Interviewer: Do you not think it would inspire if you were kind of into writing and things like that and drawing and all. Would there not be a lot of poets and artists come out of it, no? Just the whole setting. Not really.

Pat: It’s hard to tell. You see it only opened in 1951. There was a lot of academics came out of it. Past students are professors all over the world.

Interviewer: Did you like teaching in it?

Pat: It was a nice place, yes. There was a lot of doctors came out of it and people like that and professional people. Look they’re building a wee wall.

Interviewer: It’s nice to see that done up.

Pat: That’s the boy that looks after the farm. We’ll go down this way. Oh watch, watch, just in case.

Interviewer: Oh you scared the daylights out of me.

Pat: Sometimes with this new road marking …

Interviewer: I know.

Pat: With this new road marking …

Interviewer: That’s a big bus shelter. How long did you teach there?

Pat: Nappan old graveyard is over here.

Interviewer: Oh is it? You can show me that then too.

Pat: We’ll go over to it. The Turnley and the Higginson, the father and mother of Moira O’Neill the poetess are buried up here, Higginson. You see Higginsons at one time, well they had this house in Cushendun but they also owned the house that Giddeon McGilliard lives in now below the road.

Interviewer: Where?

Pat: Below the road here. So they’re buried up in Nappan graveyard. Take it easy it’s just round the corner here. This is Garron Tower land here too. This is all Garron Tower right over to this next fence.

Interviewer: Did somebody leave that to them.

Pat: This fence here is the boundary of it, here that’s the boundary although they do own this wee strip along here and they own this strip up above the road as far as the graveyard. Now the graveyard is up here. There is a van or something stopped at it but that doesn’t matter we’ll stop there. This is the way into it.

Interviewer: I shouldn’t really stop there, should I? I pull in just here so that somebody can get past.

Pat: That’s far enough. You’re okay … right up to the College and away down to the cut rock beyond it.

Interviewer: Oh look you can see the fort from here much clearer.

Pat: You can.

Interviewer: Can’t you. Very distinctive.

Pat: Yes. You can see the shape of it better from here. You can get a picture of Garron Tower.

Interviewer: I wonder if I should go any closer?

Pat: … Graveyard.

Interviewer: Was there a Church round here?

Pat: There was no history of one but there must have been one at some stage. Be careful because you could trip over.

Interviewer: Yeah. At least we can see it all now. That’s beautiful Pat isn’t it.

Pat: Watch the stones. There is still people buried here. Up in the corner there they are supposed to have buried the survivors or the people who died when the Enterprise …

Interviewer: Of Lynn

Pat: Of Lynn was sunk in the early 1800.

Interviewer: Higginson.

Pat: Higginson, that’s the Higginson grave, the father and mother of Moira O’Neill are buried there.

Interviewer: Springmount.

Pat: Springmount is near Clough. That was their home.

Interviewer: 1894

Pat: And these here were other houses they owned. Springmount is near Clough you know between here and Ballymena into the right.

Interviewer: Drumnasole.

Pat: It’s on the road from Clough down to the main Ballymena/Ballymoney road.

Interviewer: And his daughter Hessie, Metcalfe McNeill Turnly, Drumnasole.

Pat: She married Turnly from Carnlough.

Interviewer: Which is the right way to spell Turnly?

Pat: T-U-R-N-L-Y. This is the Turnly grave.

Interviewer: Oh God.

Pat: Although it’s blocked up now

Interviewer: 1666, or is that 1866? 18?

Pat: Aye it’s 1866 because Turnly only came here around 1800

Interviewer: He was 86.

Pat: 1886, 1866.

Interviewer: That’s crazy looking Pat isn’t it? Dorthea Anna Turnly.

Pat: I don’t know how long ago they stopped using it.

Interviewer: Oh it’s not used any more.

Pat: You see John Turnly is buried in Cushendall.

Interviewer: There’s John Turnly.

Pat: John Turnly’s mother was buried over at Carey, Ballycastle because she came from there. Now I don’t know where his father was buried.

Interviewer: John Turnly, which graveyard, the Layd one.

Pat: John Turnly was buried down in the Cushendall one, down the street.

Interviewer: Catholic?

Pat: No, no the Protestant one.

Interviewer: That’s John Turnly died 9th May 1909.

Pat: Aye well that’s, that would be …

Interviewer: Hilda Bakewell. Ardclinis, Dora, Nina Graham, Sophie Wood, Franics John Seymour Turnly died 1934. John Turnly was killed in Carnlough wasn’t he in the 70’s.

Pat: He was killed in Carnlough. Now his father was Archie. Now I’m not sure where Archie was buried. I don’t think he was buried here.

Interviewer: No there is no mention of him.

Pat: I’m not sure where he is buried. He might have been buried in Carey where the mother … I know the mother is buried there because I was at the funeral. I was at a funeral here.

Interviewer: Were you?

Pat: Yeah. Darragh.

Interviewer: Oh yeah.

Pat: The name is not on it yet. These are all the Darragh/Cambridge connection from the Carnlough side, Paul Darragh now he’s buried up in that grave there but he’s buried up there somewhere but there’s no headstone on it yet.

Interviewer: Paul Darragh?

Pat: No he died 1994. This funeral was only a year ago but it was Tridentine funeral you know it was the black stole and all.

Interviewer: A what funeral?

Pat: Tridentine Rite.

Interviewer: What is that?

Pat: He went up to Belfast to mass on Sunday to the old Tridentine Latin crowd in Belfast and one of the priests came down.

Interviewer: What is that Pat, I never heard of it?

Pat: They didn’t change. Whenever the Mass is still in Latin and they wear black vestments for funerals. You don’t remember that but they did in the old days.

Interviewer: Oh I remember Latin masses aye. I liked the Latin mass.

Pat: Well these people didn’t change from, it’s still mass of course, it’s still the same.

Interviewer: Well the must obviously speak latin then.

Pat: Well everybody had to learn Latin, you had to know Latin.

Interviewer: But the congregation as well. What is this one Pat?

Pat: No name on it? No headstone on it at all.

Interviewer: No.

Pat: Don’t know.

Interviewer: Nothing.

Pat: You see they’ve bricked up the entrance. There used to be a wooden door.

Interviewer: Right. with a lock or something on it. Do you know anything about body snatchers?

Pat: Not a lot except that some of those walls surrounding graves in Layde were supposed to be built at the time of the body snatching.

Interviewer: Oops. I see what you mean about the stones.

Pat: Aye they’re sticking out all over the ground.

Interviewer: It’s hard to get a photograph of the whole place like.

Pat: And the McNeill’s ___ Alexander worked for the McNeill’s all his life. They’re just down the road there …Garron Tower. They were given … they were left a farm by a Lady and they owned that and the main farm buildings are down here. That’s McNeill’s house up there, Henry McNeill.

Interviewer: That one?

Pat: Yes.

Interviewer: That is the one or connection that’s buried in Nappan.

Pat: Alexander worked for them all his life and they buried him in there in Nappin and put a headstone over him and Sean Doherty, the Garron Tower Bursar, this was the farmhouse belonging to the land now pull up here, nice and slow here.

Interviewer: Here?

Pat: No, no you don’t have to pull in. Do you see the trees down to the left down here, Dungallon fort you can see it rising up, it’s covered with trees up it’s down there.

Interviewer: Right. I’ll get that another day.

Pat: You can get that another day. You go down that lane to that first gate and then go in there and on down.

Interviewer: Do you need to ask somebody do you?

Pat: No it belongs to Garron Tower, there’s no problem. I’ll clear it with them if you like and I’ll go with you some day.

Interviewer: Okay.

Pat: Stop now. You can see it rising up into the trees that was a Norman motte as well. So we’ll get a picture of that some day. I don’t think we’ve time today.

Interviewer: That’s okay.

Pat: And the Garron Tower farm buildings were just in there behind, back there.

Interviewer: Yeah. It’s nice the way they’re hidden.

Pat: Some day you’re coming up, come up this way and you’ll see what the view is like. This house used to belong to the land steward but I don’t know who’s in it now and that’s a private house and it belongs to a fellow that used to teach in Garron Tower. That’s Turnly’s Estate in there. That’s all Turnlys to the right of me. That’s the back entrance into Turnlys. It’s open at the moment, that’s the back entrance.

Interviewer: Beware of dog?

Pat: There’s no dog, that’s a bluff. If she has a dog it wouldn’t look at you. She had a dog for a while but it was a tame thing. That’s McGalliard land as well.

Interviewer: I got a e-mail from somebody who …

Pat: Now this is all Turnly’s ground most of the way here and then there’s people call Magill own the wee bit in there.

Interviewer: Is there anyone around here worth talking to do you think Pat?

Pat: You wouldn’t get Kathleen O’Kane. I don’t know where Kathleen lives now. She used to live at Garron Point.
She’s a sister of Sarah Quinn’s. Kathleen O’Kane would be worth talking to. She lived all her life here at Garron Point.

Interviewer: Would you be able to find out or will I?

Pat: I’ll try to find out. She’s not at Garron Point. . She did have a Post Office but they’re not there any more. They gave it up. She was the Postmistress at Garron Point all her life. Did you get talking to Sarah Quinn?

Interviewer: Well she had, had a stroke and wasn’t really, she didn’t feel comfortable talking.

Pat: Her sister Kathleen would be good. I’ll try to find out where Kathleen lives.

Interviewer: What year was Turnly …

Pat: Do you want to stop at that car park oh right well, oh yeah. You might get … that’s Dunmaul from the seaside. I don’t know whether it’s worth getting a picture of it there or not.

Interviewer: To the memory of …

Pat: No in memory of the great help that England gave at the time of the famine. I’ll show it to you, we’ll pass it.

Interviewer: Isn’t the bottom of it scribbled out or something.

Pat: The bottom of it is scribbled out but I have a picture of it in the house taken before the bottom was scribbled out.

Interviewer: When was that done then?

Pat: The picture was taken away back around the turn of the century by Holden, it’s a Holden picture I think. There is a date on it. There’s a poster on it advertising an auction and there’s a date on it so the date of picture is clear.

Interviewer: Who tried to erase it?

Pat: Oh it would be republicians at the time of the 1920’s, 1920, 21.

Interviewer: Do you see when your man Turnly was shot in Carnlough …

Pat: Yes.

Interviewer: Was there any troubles ever come any further up the coast.

Pat: Well the Sergeant was shot in Cushendall but it was one of his own men did it. It wasn’t ….

Interviewer: Sectarian?

Pat: No it was not.

Interviewer: Why, was it a personal thing?

Pat: He was a gangster, he had been carrying out bank robberies and Joe Campbell had got on to him.

Interviewer: Oh right. Campbell was a local man wasn’t he?

Pat: He was the Sergeant. He wasn’t a local man but he was very popular. Everybody respected him. We knew at the time that it wasn’t Republicians that did it.

Interviewer: Yeah.

Pat: But the police carried out no local investigation at all so they knew right away who had done it because apparently he had been in contact … now this thing here is just at this corner you better go past it and stop and then we will walk back to it. That’s it there.

Interviewer: Oh yeah I can see where it’s scribbled out.

Pat: That’s it there. So if you can manage to stop.

Interviewer: Here?

Pat: Here would do. That will do, that will do.

Interviewer: So the other policeman that shot him, did he ever get done for it?

Pat: Well he had a fellow with him who turned evidence against him and described in detail where he got the gun etc. and I mean the evidence was 100% clear but because there was no one to coperate it the judge through it out but he did convict him of one of the bank robberies and gave him a long sentence because the landlady where this policeman had been staying there was a hand gerenade used where he had threatened to pull the thing and throw it and she gave evidence that she had seen this thing in his drawer in his room so they convicted him on that but then he appealed and he got off. Sure he was only a couple of years in jail. He’s mentioned in "The Committee", do you know that famous book "The Committee".

Interviewer: Yeah.

Pat: The whole, there is 8 or 9 pages about Sergeant Campbell in it.

Interviewer: Really.

Pat: "The Committee" claims that it was organised, that it was more than just McCormick. McCormick was definitely involved but there was more than him but McCormick was the one charged with it but he claims that it was a UDA man employed by the police that did it, employed by McCormick and that McCormick wasn’t the only one involved.

Interviewer: More like an assasination. So when your man came out, you know, what sort of a job had he got when he came out.

Pat: I don’t know what he does now. I went into a shop in Ahoghill one day and he was in it and he disappeared out of it very quickly because he would have known me to see. Francis Ann Marchioness of Londonderry …
I must get you a copy of the whole thing. The picture is taken by Holden and over there was an auction thing with the date on it and you could make out the whole inscription.

Interviewer: Look that has all been sort of plastered in. What was this for?

Pat: The copy of the thing was put in a bronze tablet, smaller thing so that people could read but that was taken away. Now it wasn’t vandalised but it was taken away for safekeeping somewhere and then the Irish on the bottom. You can’t really see it but you can make it out on the picture.

Interviewer: Right. Actually it might not come out because you need the sun, you need the sun shining on it. The sun’s in the wrong…

Pat: The sun never shines on it you see except maybe very early in the morning.

Interviewer: Yeah. Sure I’ll get it some other time.

Pat: Come up some time very early some morning but that’s where it is and even if you get this side of it.

Interviewer: Aye it’s straighter. When was your man Campbell killed then, what year was that?

Pat: It’s in the book "The Committee" and I have that book. You can’t buy it here but I got it in America. Somebody going to America brought it home.

Interviewer: Was there anything else there came with the troubles in the 70’s.

Pat: That was the main thing here. There was a Belfast Judge shot here. He owed a house up in Red Bay up it wasn’t fatal.

Interviewer: Right.

Pat: And then he recovered and carried on as a Judge.

Interviewer: What about bombs or hoaxes?

Pat: And it wasn’t locals that did that. It was boys from Belfast that followed him down that did that.

Interviewer: Right.

Pat: What about bomb hoaxes or anything like that?

Pat: Well the two hotels were blown up.

Interviewer: Aye.

Pat: And the factory was bombed twice. We got a lot of damage done the first time.

Interviewer: What factory?

Pat: It’s now Red Bay Boats. It was the Tweed Factory at the time. They left a 100 lb in the porch and it did more damage to us than it did to the factory.

Interviewer: Oh God.

Pat: It blew our porch away.

Interviewer: Were yous given time to evacuate.

Pat: Well actually it had been 12 o’clock at night. It was near maybe a quarter to one and I was up at Garron Tower finishing off a …

Interviewer: At that time of night Pat.

Pat: It was summer, I was finishing off the timetable for the following year and I was determined to finish it and I stayed up until half twelve, I didn’t make it down to half twelve. At that time there was boarders there and there was Priests in residence and all. I left Garron Tower, I finished it and left and when I arrived down there was a crowd of people at the corner. I didn’t know what was on and I said what has happened and somebody said well there is nobody hurt. So I drove up to the house and there was a crowd at the gate. So I drove in and discovered that it was a bomb at the factory and they were clearing up glass. There was a crowd of locals in sweeping glass around our house.

Interviewer: You must have been frightened.

We were to go off on holidays the next day you see, so Colm Thompson, I was Secretary of the Golf Club and Colm was taking over from me when I was away, and he was in and he was going to wait until I came home because there was some things we had to sort and he was there, and Rosemary my eldest daughter, she went into the kitchen to put on the kettle to make him a cup of tea and she came running in and she says ‘did I see sparks at the factory’.

Interviewer: God.

Pat: So Colm ran in and he could see a thing, like a firework thing sparkling. God he says I think that’s a fuse get into the corridor quick and they went out into the corridor and the whole place shook and the windows came in but they were all out in the corridor.

Interviewer: Lucky.

Pat: Rosemary was the last out and she got a slight cut on her hand with glass but that was the only thing and it didn’t signify. The others were in bed. Paddy was in bed in the cot. The others were in bed but the windows went in but in fact a lot of the glass went out whatever way the suction went it blew the glass out rather than in. So they were safe enough. They were all at the front of the house you see. Paddy was in his cot and his room was the only window that didn’t come in. It was the only window intact. The first window to the left of the main door and the glass in the door didn’t come in either but everything else came in. All the other bedrooms including the one that Ann and Fiona were in and they were actually in bed but the glass most of it went out rather than in so they were safe enough.

Interviewer: Very lucky. There was two bombs like that.

Pat: And Briege and Rosemary were still up you see. They were up, it was holiday time and they were up and Colm was in, and it was a good job because he got them into the corridor.

Interviewer: Yeah.

Pat: But there was another smaller bomb later. It was inside the factory and it caused a small fire but the fire brigade put it out fairly quickly. It didn’t do us much harm.

Interviewer: Why was it targeted?

Pat: Because it was owned by Gael Linn at the time. It was loyalists from Larne that did it.

Interviewer: And was there anything …

Pat: Under the protection of the UDR because when the first one was done there was a UDR patrol went up the back road followed by a car. So obviously the UDR were giving them protection out of the area.

Interviewer: The go ahead.

Pat: There was no doubt about that because the people on the back road got out when they heard the bang got out, up at Charlie Hamills the UDR patrol went flying by followed by a car. That was them getting away. We didn’t stop at Ardclinis by we don’t have time. We will get it again. It’s easy enough to get, it’s along the road there. Some other day we can get Ardclinis, it won’t take long to get Ardclinis and I’ll get Kilmore Graveyard, sorry Drumnacur Monastic Site, it’s only just the one stone there.

Interviewer: It’s worth maybe having anyway.

Spkr01 Ardclinis, Drumnacur, Kilmore it’s easily got, it’s beside the road, Fallowvee old pier we’re past it now, Galboly we’ll go up someday.

Interviewer: Any chance tomorrow Pat?

Pat: Possible.

Interviewer: Sure we’ll see how you are anyway.

Pat: I’ll see how I’m fixed.

Interviewer: Do you know the very start of the troubles, ’68, ’69.

Pat: Aye.

Interviewer: Was there any type of change of atmosphere or was there any sense …

Pat: You see it didn’t affect us very much here until there was a bomb in Waterfoot in front of McNaughton’s, Glenariffe Inn and it did an awful lot of damage there, in fact in nearly wrecked the place.

Interviewer: Right.

Pat: There was no casualities but there was no warning either. It went off … after that we decided to have vigilanties. So there was a meeting called and Glenariffe decided to have their own and we would have our own and there was a meeting in the hall and old Tom McLaughlin was elected Chairman and a lot of discussion took place so they decided to have patrols on the streets between 11 at night and 7 in the morning, 11 to 3 and 3 to 7, two four hour shifts.

Interviewer: Just men obviously.

Pat: Just men. There was no women involved in it at least not in the patrols. We would meet and stay around the village during the night or if you were on at 3 you got up and went down at 3 and the boys that were on it we would relieve them. Now it went on for several years and then interest gradually drifted off when nothing was happening.

Interviewer: What were you looking for, what were yous kind of told to look for?

Pat: The police knew we were out. Just to keep an eye on things. Keep an eye what was happening, if there was anything suspicious take the numbers of the car and you had a wee notebook that you wrote things in a notebook but there wasn’t a lot.

Interviewer: You weren’t allowed to park on the main street, is that right?

Pat: No that came later.

Interviewer: Oh was it.

Pat: That came later they decided to get barrels put on. So they put barrels up the street and planks across them, attached to them so that you couldn’t park. A very funny thing before they put the barrels down the police had made an order ‘no parking on the street during the night’ you see, well no parking on the street, it was as simple as that and there would be cars parks and the worst offender was Joe McCollam down at the pub. He had a wee van you see and he practically ignored the … so one night there was a meeting going on in the hall and the local IRA crowd about 20 of them arrived in the village all masked and they went down through the town and they let down a tyre from every car that was parked on the street.

Interviewer: Right.

Pat: And when they come to Joe McCollam they let down all four as he was the worst offender. So it was very funny to see the IRA enforcing a police regulation. It was the police made the regulation ‘no parking’ and the IRA enforced it. It could only happen in a place like this. Very much involved with the Protestant Minister the Reverend Henry Heatley. He did his stint on vigalante. He came out and did his regular four hours and he was very good actually.

Interviewer: Was this every night of the week?

Pat: It was covered every night but you only had once a week to do. I think our crowd did Thursday nights and it alternated between the early and the late shift.

Interviewer: Was it like teams.

Pat: Yes there was four or five of us in our team and we alternated with the other crowd. We would do one night 11 to 3 and the next night we did 3 to 7.

Interviewer: Nobody every come across anything sinster?

Pat: No but the strange thing … the phone for instance at the corner was always out of action but once the vigilantes came in it was never out of action. It stopped the vandalism. There was no vandalism.

Interviewer: Ah yes.

Pat: No vandalism at all.

Interviewer: Local crime must have went down.

Pat: Yes it did. There was no local crime when the vigilantes were on. There wasn’t much anyway but things like vandalising a phone box that didn’t happen because there was vigilantes at the corner.

Interviewer: Yeah. So that went on for a number of years, did it, the vigilantes?

Pat: I can’t remember how long it went on. It certainly went on … it stopped when Joe Campbell was shot. That’s when it stopped. They thought it was too dangerous at that stage because Campbell knew it was going on and you would ask his advice now and again on different things.

Interviewer: Yeah. Just Cushendall and Waterfoot?

Pat: Waterfoot actually gave up before we did but the bomb that started it all went off in Waterfoot.

Interviewer: So you found out when it was too late.

Pat: It started at the bomb in Waterfoot, started immediately after that and it stopped, the last of the group stopped functioning, although some of them had stopped before that and there was a bomb at the factory. Now there was nobody on the night the bomb was at the factory although there should have been.

Interviewer: Right.

Pat: Because there was vigilantes on but there was nobody on that particular shift. It was Donal Kearney’s crowd and they had quit, you see they had quit. They were one of the ones that quit early and they weren’t on actually or if they were they weren’t out this way. There was nobody had come out this way. You see normally you stayed round the corner but you did the odd tour now and again and …

Interviewer: Stayed in the centre just.

Pat: Well we stayed in the centre but we did, we always did a wee tour around. Somebody always stayed in the centre but a couple of others went round in the car now and again at regular intervals just to keep an eye out, kept an eye on the chapel, kept an eye on the school and things like that and we would have looked at the factory too. We would have watched out for anything suspicious anywhere but the boys that were on that night didn’t … are you coming in Caroline?

Interviewer: No, no it’s near dinner time.

Pat: I’ll see you …

Interviewer: See if you can see about tomorrow sure. I’ve a meeting in the morning but …

Pat: The afternoon then.

Interviewer: Yes, yes. Thanks a lot Pat again. Cheerio.

Pat: We didn’t get a lot done.

Interviewer: We did, we did.

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